On chat just now, we got into a discussion about weather or not teen pregnancies among Hogwarts students are allowed. From what people said, I think there was another discussion about it earlier that I missed.
I personally think it should be allowed. TT's character Evanesca Douleur got pregnant some time in her 6th year I think. Evie's baby Marley was conceived in her 7th year (I know. I calculated the pregnancy :P) even though he was born after her graduation. And they can't have been the only ones. Hogwarts is over 1,000 years old, there's got to have been some pregnant teens in that time.
I think that as long as everyone is reasonable and we don't start getting many pregnancies, it isn't a problem. If became a fad like the non-teen baby boom a while back, then I think it'd be fair to rethink this.
As for teen pregnancies all the issues surrounding them, I know someone said it made them uncomfortable. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's fair to say other people can't have it happen to their chars. I personally don't believe murder is right and am generally uncomfortable with it in RL, but in a story I think it's a great component. And I'm certainly not going to tell people that the Mullins can't kill each other if their users feel it's the right thing for their stories.
I'm not saying I think Hogwarts couldn't make rules stricter after this. I'm not saying Hogwarts couldn't make their own ruling on whether or not teen mums can say in school, or if their babies can stay there.
In the books, the stairs to the Gryffindor girls' dormitory are enchanted to become a slide if any boy attempts to climb them, but not vice versa. Take that for what you will. -R.A.B. 05:12, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
I don't support it at all in RL but it happens. I think that in order for this /not/ to become an epidemic, the user would have to ask an admin if it is okay, first.
11:48, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
I think that we all realize it's generally not in the best interest of the mother, father or child when this happens, but at the same time we do all realize that accidents happen in RL and this does happen. We also have had it happen a few times at Hogwarts, but I believe that all those cases have been with older characters (16/17) and their 'tryst' occurred outside Hogwarts (generally in Hogsmeade or somewhere similar).
As a general rule, while couples may be able to find solitary places around Hogwarts (such as for snogging and such in the books) there generally are teachers, prefects, etc around and I would image that while making-out might recieve just a warning or such, anything more would recieve severe punishment. While Hogwarts is a school where the students live (and as we've ruled can't leave excepting summer and Christmas) it's also expected to be a place where student's can't just run wild by the parents who send them there. If it becomes a place where student's aren't being supervised and can do whatever they like (dark spells, wander into the dangerous forest, sex, etc) then we've lost the realism we try to achieve here and we have a major issue.
That's why as Headmaster I try to remind people, we can't have students below 17 Years old (age of adulthood) wanding Diagon Alley during a school year, or GM dangerous things happening to the in the Forbidden Forest, and why I got so upset by a random student being murdered at Hogwarts a couple years back. While Hogwarts needs to be a place of some mystery (and a bit of danger) it also need to be an overall safe environment for the students and staff living there otherwise realisticly it would be shut down by the Ministry or parents refusing to send their kids there.
So...given that I feel any one of the issues I listed above could really wreck out wiki as we would lose our realistic environment if it's not controlled and then anything would be possible or allowed, I think teen pregnancy at Hogwarts should be something controlled. If it happens over summer of Christmas break while students are away from home, then it's not our concern (as long as that's clearly stated) and that's one way a user can have this happen to their character without 'oversight' as it were. Other than that I would say the characters in question (because yes it takes two people to make a baby) need to be at least 17 (so some older 6th years or 7th years), have some sort of admin approval (I would suggest approval of whomever is the Headmaster since they'll be the one really dealing with it), and possibly have a RP that leads up to that point (PG-13!) somewhere outside Hogwarts (like Hogsmeade or wherever they've managed to find alone-time). I know I may be ranting at this point, but I think these are good rules/guidelines to think about and follow with something this serious reguarding RPs that could affect the wiki as a whole.
One final thought since I think this is close enough to the topic to address here...we've never had a baby aborted in RP on this wiki, and personally I think it should be outlawed/banned IC in the Wizarding world and OOC in RPs. While accidents do happen in RL, they literally can't on the wiki as we actively control our character's fate. If a teen gets pregnant the user should want that character to be a parent, and plan on that. As a last resort we do have Lil Bundles. If it's not already banned (which it may be) I think aborting a baby should be on this wiki as it crosses those ethical and moral lines that mave a bit past the PG-13 (or even PG) we try to keep on the wiki. Bond_em7 (Owl Me) 12:31, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
I whole-heartedly agree with Bond's response, and would like to add my following thoughts:
I am highly, highly against this. I do think think that if it's allowed, it will set a precedent, and it will become something everyone thinks is allowed... and even more than that... "cool."
Teen pregnancy is something that Hollywood has blown completely out of proportion. Hollywood has romanticized it into something that's nearly idealistic. Nothing about getting pregnant as a teenager is idealistic. Does it happen? Of course it does. Does it happen as much as Hollywood and reality shows would have us believe? Not at all.
To compare teen pregnancy to murder is to compare apples to waterbottles in my opinion. They are two completely different things, and should not even be compared. That's all I have to say about that.
Students are not allowed (as far as I can tell) to stay overnight on weekends in Hogsmeade. I heard the argument "it only takes twenty minutes" but I find that to be a very naive view of sex, and that it's unrealistic.
The only scenario I could imagine a teen pregnancy at Hogwarts would be if conception happened over a significant break from school (Christmas or Summer), and certainly, certainly not in the castle. There are far too many canon reasons to prove against it happening in the castle, at any hour of the day.
If I recall correctly, (which I may not, it was a long time ago) Evanesca's was basically conceived on the floor of a bar in Hogmeade. Evie was head girl at the time of hers, so she did her own dorm room, with more privacy, (and because she was Head Girl, I bet they trusted her slightly more than they should've). Alternatively, it could've been convinced over Christmas Break, because by that time her and her family had had a falling out and she had her own flat in Diagon Alley that she was staying in over the breaks. -R.A.B. 13:43, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
I do not disagree with anyones opinions on the matter teen pregnancies at hogwarts, just want to clear that through the air. In fact, I only sorta skimmed what anyone else said, cause I'm not a quick reader. I've always found this to be sort of a touchy subject. I think that role-playing characters should be able to go just as much as it is like in real life, because adding the real life perspective to something fictional makes it more intriguing, in my opinion. I think there is a degree to which people can make choices on their own for their chars, and where they need to get permission. This is much more of a complicated one.
As we all (most likely) know, there weren't any teen pregnancies in the books of Harry Potter, and while we want to try and keep things as canon as possible, I think that it could be completely possible for a teen pregnancy. I mean (sorry, this might come a bit vulgar), what's to stop to kids from going to hogsmeade, going into the restroom of The Three Broomsticks and getting it on?
I, personally, am a strong believer in the idea that OOC and IC should not mix, on the level of how things are discovered. What I mean by this is that if an RP is going underway, and the characters start getting handsy, there should not be any users to stop the characters from doing it, because how would that be possible? Users don't interact with chars. If they did, a lot of my chars would probably start chasing me with a knife, asking me why I ruined their lives.
However, with teen pregnancies, as Ckohrs said above, other things could begin to sprout from it. Such as rape among student chars, mollestation among student chars, and possibly even student-teacher emotional relationships. And while all of that would be completely possible, we have to decide if we would allow this to happen on DARP.
In the books, we never really see any sexual situations, but I think that is more so because it was created for children (in a way).
I don't have any personal opinions on whether teen pregnancy should be or should not be allowed on DARP, but I wanted to expand upon what we're discussing, to put everything into a larger perspective of what could spawn off from it and valible points as to why it could be allowed. ~ Colin687 22:18, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
I remember back when Evanesca got pregnant. I'm pretty sure it happened within school. (In one of their rooms. I remember, because Bond had to stop them from RPing anything too graphic.)
I understand CK's point about it becoming a thing. I know that a lot of the things here on the wiki tend to happen in waves, by accident or not. Like, the baby wave and the wedding wave and the death wave. It happens, and that's fine, but we can't have a bunch of teenagers just getting pregnant. I believe that anyone who wants their char to have a teenage pregnancy needs to contact an admin first, and explain why they want it to happen. If it's some sort of integral character arc that they think would genuinely make their character a better person, and they have no problem adhering to rules, then I think we should go for it. But, the admins can control when to approve certain pregnancies that way a bunch won't be happening at the same time. If anyone wants their teenager to get pregnant just because "it looks cool", then we'll have to say no.
Rabbit has a point when she said that girls can get into boys' dormitories. They won't be caught unless a roommate complains. They can also conceive the baby over summer or Christmas break, as mentioned above. So, I think my overall stand on this is that I think users should be free to want things to happen to their characters, but we should control how many happen at a certain time in order not to have this huge wave.
The users who want to have a teen pregnancy with their chars also need to plan out what to do with the baby. I strongly disagree with keeping the baby in Hogwarts. If they want a baby, they need to come up with a good, realistic plan and have it approved. LittleRedCrazyHood 22:43, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
The top three things I agree with from what other users have said: Hollywood has definitely 'romanticized' teen pregnancy; if teen pregnancy is allowed I don't want it to get out of control; and it is true that there are no examples of teen pregnancy in the books.
That being said:
Imagine if you got pregnant (or, if you're a guy, that you got your girlfriend pregnant). You'd have to deal with the consequences. And there are A LOT OF THEM. Maybe you're thinking, "That would never happen." And because your characters are a lot like you, that might never happen to your character, either, but you still want the experience of teen pregnancy in rp. What's the alternative? Rape, perhaps?
Perhaps I'm generalizing too much, but this is an example of how this could get out of hand if one of the crats made a blog that basically said teen pregnancy was okay, giving everyone an excuse to have at it. When I think of rping a teen pregnancy, I admit that it's a dark but tantalizing concept. If it wasn't intriguing to think about, this forum wouldn't exist. But there are so many other tantalizing things to rp that don't have the same immoral implications.
If teen pregnancies are allowed, I hope they're portrayed realistically and not romantically, because they don't generally have happy endings. A huge percentage of teen pregnancies are miscarriages anyway, and many others have birth defects. Even the healthy ones don't generally live with a happy couple, to say the least. There are so many financial and emotional hardships, as well as many others that I can scarcely imagine. Our rps might be fiction, but they should still be practical, you know?
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is about looking at the negative effects and balancing them out with the positive ones. Please don't just fight for one side because it would be the most advantageous to you in particular. (I'm not talking to you Echo or to anyone in this forum in particular. Just a reminder. :P )LittleRedCrazyHood 22:52, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
Basically, my question in all of this is why it has suddenly become so controversial that it needs admin approval. It's happened before, as as far as I'm aware there was no need for it to be approved then. It's been a few years since Evie, and there's only talk of having one pregnancy now, not a flood. -R.A.B. 01:08, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
I don't know about Evie, but if I remember correctly, TT did need admin approval at the time, especially as hers was the first teen pregnancy, and there were still some users at the time who didn't agree with it. Echostar★ 01:16, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
I just want to add that there's a sort of level of class both OOC in the wiki, and IC in Hogwarts. How likely would a student go unnoticed with a baby bump. Also let's be real. That girl would be absolutely smashed by classmates and students all around the school. The amount of bullying that happens to a girl undergoing a teen pregnancy is awful. Yes, it does happen in real life, but does that mean it has to happen here? Lots of things happen in real life, and I hate saying them here but things like genocide, rape, etc all happen in real life but we don't really need to emulate them on wiki.
Also, yes, we had a couple before, but don't you think Kinsel or the headmaster would take extra care to ensure that a student who was pregnant would be removed from school and sent home/to St Mungo's either for the year or just to give birth? Why does it have to be done in Hogwarts? Many girls who have teen pregnancies still do go to a hospital and ensure that they have proper medical support when they give birth. We need to think how likely it would go unreported.
And, I don't mean to sound rude, but can't it wait like a couple of years after the character is graduated? Like I mean, it's a lot more classy and tactful, I just don't think teen birthing would fit in with the ethos of Hogwarts school. Also, this is a serious RL issue, and we have some younger users who are easily influenced by some of this stuff. Fantasy magic and duels aside, a teen pregnancy is a real thing, and it's seriously scary and dangerous. We RP it like it's nothing major, but it's a huge issue. I just don't like the idea at all. In fact, it makes 0% sense for Kinsel to allow it, for the pregnancy to go unnoticed, and for the mother to not be bullied/abused/recognised as pregnant. I just don't see the need. But that's my view, and I'm sorry if it comes across as rude/conservative/horrible, I just think that teen pregnancies aren't a joke and shouldn't be RP'ed, as it really can ruin lives.
I wasn't here the first time it happened. I think the reason it's become so controversial now, is because someone did ask for permission. And permission wasn't granted as happily as expected, perhaps. I think that Soa hit it on the nose with "Lots of things happen in real life, and I hate saying them here but things like genocide, rape, etc all happen in real life but we don't really need to emulate them on wiki." and "Also, this is a serious RL issue, and we have some younger users who are easily influenced by some of this stuff. Fantasy magic and duels aside, a teen pregnancy is a real thing, and it's seriously scary and dangerous. We RP it like it's nothing major, but it's a huge issue." The course of true love never did run smooth 03:19, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
Says who? You said they rp it like it's not a big issue, but how would you know that? They haven't rped it yet, and I think it's unfair to make judgements like that without even giving them a chance first. -R.A.B. 03:23, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
Which users are those, CK? You know, the ones affected by this kind of stuff?
Rab, considering we had two teen pregnancies? Evanesca and Evie??? Both of whose babies survived, and they went on to lead their lives?
My argument is not with teen pregnancy as a concept (not only as a concept) but the fact it's taking place in the school. Rab you justified it by saying "I think that as long as everyone is reasonable and we don't start getting many pregnancies, it isn't a problem." What's that supposed to mean? "everyone is reasonable?" Giving birth in the school is not reasonable, semantically speaking, it's ludacris. "we don't start getting many pregnancies" - my first quip with this is what is too many. Users will want to RP one and they'll say "Oh, User X got to do it, and so did User Y, but now I'm not allowed to?" Is it going to be "there can only be one teen pregnancy in the year, first come first serve" ?? Will people have to book which person will be pregnant? My point is we A- don't know how many we'll get, B- we rely on the premise that we have to be reasonable, but that in it's self needs to be redifined completely and C- we haven't even figured out the logistics of how we're going to control the situation so it doesn't get out of hand.
Liss, the bit about the users being affected was my point, that CK re-iterrated. Obviously I'm not going to name names here, but you need to remember we have some 13 year olds on the wiki. I know that they're mature, but my sister is 13, and she's very impressionable, very naive, easily affected by major things but at the same time remains very intelligent. My point is, if we're actually advocating teen pregnancies towards these young 13/14 year olds, then we're basically saying "look, here - it's okay for this to happen."
But if you really want to argue against any of my points, I'd like to repeat my points of the implications the kid will have on the school and the mother.
- What would other parents say if they found out that there was a teen pregnancy in hogwarts? In my school many kids were removed and switched schools when parents found out.
- Teenage pregnant girls get slut-shamed (yeah, I'm using that word here), harrassed, abused, sometimes even physical battery to no end - but we're not going to RP all of that on the wiki. Why? Because it's awful. This means we're not RPing genuinely reflecting the issue, thus bringing me on to my point of "we RP it like it's nothing". (Rab, this one's for you)
- Kinsel is a smart headmaster. He's not cruel, when the first two happened I don't know what his role etc was in purely bc I don't remember them. But it'd be ridiculous to claim he wouldn't have sat there doing nothing. He knows the reputation of the school, and the level of class that the school boasts. So he'd take extra care to ensure that it didn't happen again. Boys still technically can get into the girls dorms? Not anymore, because Kinsel would have taken measures to stop it from happening. He would surely, surely send them to St Mungo's for delivery, and give them a leave from school and a chance to continue after thei gave birth and had a leave.
- If we set an age limit, it'd have to be at least sixteen, because sex is legal in the UK when both consensual parties have to be 16. This being said, that would mean they have sixth and seventh years to concieve a child. What is wrong with waiting for two school years to finish??
Anyhoo sorry if it got ranty
It seems to me that this topic has gotten quite charged, and we all know the whole point of this wiki is to have fun, but also to try to semi-realistically RP out situations and scenarios that could occur in the world of Harry Potter. In my mind this is a clash between enjoyment and realism on our wiki. That being said, I would rather ban this from being RPed and make things a bit less realistic than to have it continue and diminish people's fun here. As it's been pointed out many times above there are a lot of IC consequences for the parents of a kid at Hogwarts (nearly all of them negative) and while allowing this WOULD try to keep some small aspect of realism intact, I honestly just don't see it as being worth it in the face of all the negativity that would occur (IC). I know OOC we all realize it's not real, our characters are real, so this isn't really happening...but we do try to keep PG-13 and if we try to RP realistic pregnancy at Hogwarts, I'm not sure that standard can be kept.
So...given that (for now) I'm still a Bcrat I think it's in the best interest of the wiki to ban this from occurring on our wiki. I know some people may be disappointed if they had plans along these lines, and others will argue that we're making things less realistic...but sometimes the rules that are set for everyone have to cut into those things a bit to ensure that EVERYONE can have the most fun possible. I would just outright ban it myself, but given that I'm due to step down in a couple weeks I still want to leave the decision to the Admin team as a whole (maybe a vote should be set up). However, given the amount of charged argument and high emotions I ca see just running through this conversation, I feel it's a situation best avoided altogether and should be completely banned (which isn't something I often advocate). Bond_em7 (Owl Me) 14:24, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
I know Bond's word essentially means the end of this, but the whole 'we have younger people on the wiki. They're very impressionable' kind of got on my nerves, so I feel that I must reply. I did not precieve either previous pregnancies on the wiki as an "advocacy" for 'Hey! Let's go get pregnant!' and I fall in the aforementioned 'impressionable' bracket. Also, who said that the birth would occur at Hogwarts itself? I don't recall that ever being mentioned. I thought it was implied Evie gave birth at Mungo's, as well as Doueler. Idiosyncratic6 22:36, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
Bond's word isn't the end; he might be the oldest member and b-crat (and really truly awesomesauce to say the least) but just because he says that he thinks it should be banned or maybe put to vote doesn't necessarily mean that's what will be decided. I think that a lot of users' concerns, for the ones who are against this, are that it's easy to feed into how teen pregnancy is portrayed by Hollywood and such, like it isn't as big a deal as you'd think or that it's very likely to have a happy ending. Think about the way murder is portrayed in Hollywood: it's tragic. Overly dramatic, maybe, but very rarely with a happy ending. That's often the case on the wiki too. In either case, you wouldn't want to go out and murder someone or get pregnant as a teenager because your character did it or something. But why feed into the culture of romanticized teen pregnancy? And by feeding into it I don't even mean making yourself believe it might not be that bad, because not every young person is that 'impressionable' as you say. But it's still very easy to imagine how that scenario could be changed to make it happy, when in reality that's just never the case. Echostar★ 22:53, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
Just to expand on Echo's point, when I say impressionable, I mean that younger people don't get to see the full view of the issue as it would happen in reality. I am in no way trying to imply that the younger users are naive or easily swayed into making stupid decisions, but rather they just don't have the life experience to understand what the real implications of teenage pregnancy are. To be honest, I probably won't have a full view of it, at the age of eighteen going onto nineteen. But yeah, I'm not undermining the mental capacity of the young users here.
I will stand neutral on this. Not that there have been chars where this has happened, but if you honestly ask me, I could care less, since realistically, I do not support this when it comes to real life, but then, RL isn't this and so... anything could happen. It all depends on whether we are looking to balance the life around Hogwarts to RL. Eva McKenna ~ Slytherin Quidditch Beater & Captain, Auror, The Girl With No Mistakes, The Lorell Corsair, The Golden Lady, Editor for the Daily Prophet, The Little Troublemaker
Guys, I made this forum so we could come to some sort of agreement on this issue and it wouldn't blow up like the gay character count thing. Everyone (including me/especially me) got too emotional and argumentative about this whole thing. I think the some sort of compromise is the best option, because I don't think anyone's going to back down. The most obvious compromise is to allow it, but to make it heavy regulated.
- My Personal Opinion: I really trust most the people of darp to be good rps, responsible rps, and realistic rps. I think people get better at anything with practice, and that we're getting better at rping all the time. But if it makes other people feel better, I would be completely ok with having an intense list of strict regulations. And I can see where they're coming from, there's always that newb who's pushing the rules and pushing for a half-veela metamorphmagus seer with an eidetic memory, and we do need to make rules to protect against that.
Forgive me for being too philosophical, but if two users wanted their characters to have a teen pregnancy, maybe ask what would be the point? I think this issue goes beyond the answer 'Because it could be fun to rp.' Echostar★ 12:26, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
I'm still a little worried about it getting slightly out of hand, but if it must go through a Bcrat/Admin, and they have a solid, solid reason, as Echo said, beyond just "Because it could be fun" (or something similar), and the chars in question are not younger than 17 (I'm still going to stick to that point), I could find compromise there. The course of true love never did run smooth 16:31, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
In the wizarding world, people come of age at 17 and often marry and have children young because there is no university. So pregnancies of those 17 and older aren't really teen pregnancies: they're (at least technically) adult pregnancies. I'm not saying that emotionally and financially they're like having a baby at 30, but they are technically adults then, so to me it seems unfair to apply rules to them, but not to all adults. -R.A.B. 23:35, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
So, could we all comprimise on, say, some of the regulations being:
- The character in question must be at least 17/16 IC years of age.
- There must be good reasoning. (i.e. Character development/character story arc, or, say, it was an issue close to the user in question and they wanted a chance to protray it accurately [?] )
- In the character's third trimester, if they have not graduated, they must go to St. Mungo's for professional care and will not be roleplayed at Hogwarts for that time. (If the character wishes to [re]take their N.E.W.T.s, they would have to redo part of the year. Depends on the Headmaster's decision?)
- Up until that point of induction to St. Mungo's, the character would recieve biweekly check-ups in the Hospital Wing. The users in question can choose to roleplay this or not (?)
- No abortions; You wanted your character pregnant for a reason. (See 2)
I think those are quite good. As for reasons, I think the main reason we rp anything if for the fun of rping, but having a reason beyond just for the hell of it seems like a very reasonable rule. -R.A.B. 04:56, October 8, 2014 (UTC)